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Research and common sense both tell us that mandatory ultrasounds cannot be what proponents claim they are, a harmless attempt to impart information to a woman to help with her decision on abortion.Research shows that women don’t change their minds after viewing an ultrasound, but go ahead with the abortion anyway. Common sense should tell you why. The only real way that an ultrasound imparts information is if a woman doesn’t know she’s pregnant. But women don’t seek abortions unless they’re pregnant. At most, ultrasounds tend to show women seeking abortions that the embryo/fetus is smaller and less formed than they’ve probably been led to believe. Except for the thoughtless and the dim, it’s clear that mandatory ultrasounds therefore cannot have anything to do with giving information, much less convincing women not to have abortions.
So what is it about, then? Pro-choicers have long figured it was a matter of putting up more obstacles for women who have abortions, but mostly it’s about punishment. Since they can’t ban abortion outright and therefore jail or at least fine women who have them, anti-choicers instead will write disingenuous laws that dish out punishment in the guise of concern. It’s the modern day version of putting someone in the stocks, shaming someone as punishment. Except the Puritans at least waited until after you did the forbidden thing; conservatives are going to get you for even thinking about it.
The Scarlet Ultrasound: State-Sanctioned Rape as Punishment for Having Sex
Article Source: rhrealitycheck.org- Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.
- Public Discussion (132)
Punishment usually comes after the crime, of course, and what makes mandatory ultrasound weird is that it’s coming before "the crime" that isn't. But really, if you think about it from the right wing perspective, it’s not really. If you believe the original crime was having sex, then in fact, the mandatory ultrasound makes perfect chronological sense. Which is why you’re seeing so many justifications note that the woman had sex and therefore had this coming. The sex is really the crime, not the desire to have an abortion, though that’s a compounding factor. Dana Loesch said that forcible penetration by the state can’t be rape, because, “Wait a minute, they had no problem having similar to a trans-vaginal procedure when they engaged in the act that resulted in their pregnancy.” Again, it’s the theory that a non-virgin can’t be raped, and that if you had sex with one person, anyone can shove whatever they want into your body at any point in time. But also, this is about punishment, and suggesting that the proper punishment for a woman who has sex of her own volition is to sentence her to sexual assault.
- 30 votes
The original crime was having unprotected sex. That is no birth control. Then having the audacity to abort the product of that action with no concern for life at all.
- 3 votes
Very facile, Nick. You ignore rape. You ignore incest. You ignore the many parts of this country where it is next to impossible to get contraception without hassle, never mind the inability of many parts of this country to have serious sex education classes early enough to prevent this horror. Then assault the poor woman while she is in these straits? Typical republican male.
All women need to read The Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood, preferably before menarche.
- 39 votes
The original crime was having unprotected sex
So if the pregnancy is a product of failed birth control then you agree that this is state sponsored rape?
- 28 votes
Nick you seem to be a man of very strong values, in your mind, and no one can have a thought unless they agree with your mind. Raised makes great points which actually pertains to the seed, unprotected sex is your idea of a crime, not the rape or the torture that they have to go through to get a abortion which is legal in this country.
- 26 votes
VA state politicians who passed this legislation => perverts
- 17 votes
I see Nick is for the mandatory anal probe for all men that were not 'wrapped' before sex.
- 20 votes
So if the pregnancy is a product of failed birth control then you agree that this is state sponsored rape?
Yes.
- 1 vote
unprotected sex is your idea of a crime, not the rape or the torture that they have to go through to get a abortion which is legal in this country.
Having unprotected sex knowing darn well that pregnancy may be a problem and casually dismissing that by having the attitude that it is okay because we have abortion is the crime.
- 1 vote
Having unprotected sex knowing darn well that pregnancy may be a problem and casually dismissing that by having the attitude that it is okay because we have abortion is the crime.
Yeah because women are so dumb that they would rather pay hundreds of dollars for a state sanctioned rape and painful invasive surgery that causes them to bleed for weeks instead of using free or low cost birth control. If that's the case then I don't think I want that person reproducing anyway.
Either way, it's none of your business whatsoever why a woman gets an abortion no more than it's anyones business when a man masturbates/has sex for pleasure only and spills millions of sperms. The only thing affected by either act is only potential people so mind your own business, you and no other actual person is being affected by it.
- 26 votes
We SHOULD NOT have mandatory ultrasounds forced on women. That being said, this is not rape. If this is rape, tampons are rape.
- 3 votes
CC, they would be if inserted against the woman's will - THAT is what makes it rape not the insertion.
- 27 votes
If this is rape, tampons are rape.
Because tampons are forced on women?! CC you really need to learn the definition of rape. One of the most ridiculous analogies I have seen here on NV!
- 25 votes
We SHOULD NOT have mandatory ultrasounds forced on women. That being said, this is not rape. If this is rape, tampons are rape.
Wrong, Tampons are voluntary. This is being FORCE upon women. Having no choice is forced.
- 24 votes
COns once again demonstrating such understanding and concern for the needs of females...How would you like a state colonoscopy as punishment for spilling your seed? Yeah its like that...
- 19 votes
They don't get it. If you would have told me 10 years ago that this type of thing would become a law I would not have believed it, but now here we are with certain elements of the republican party subjugating women's rights. I call this a war on women and it makes them mad, but honestly, what else can you call it? Who is paying for this again?
- 17 votes
The only thing affected by either act is only potential people so mind your own business, you and no other actual person is being affected by it.
I like you have opinions. And like you apparently don't mind their own business, Otherwise you would not be commenting here.
And like you apparently don't mind their own business, Otherwise you would not be commenting here.
State mandated violation of a persons body is my business and every other citizens. What you shove into your various orifices is not. What someone else shoves into them against your will is everyone's business because it violates your rights. It is amazing that people can not see the difference here.
You do realize that you are arguing that it is no one's business if the State passed a law for you to undergo an inter-urethral sonogram of your prostate because you had unprotected sex with a woman and the pregnancy is being aborted.
There is no justification for this law. It is a violation of virtually every freedom we hold sacred in this country. Not only should the law be overturned in court and repealed in the legislature, but those that passed it should be jailed for civil rights violations.
- 22 votes
I don't understand how these laws are constitutional.
ABORTION IS LEGAL
- 17 votes
And like you apparently don't mind their own business, Otherwise you would not be commenting here.
Tim pretty much hit the nail on the head with his comment! I'm not trying to take away your opinion, Nick. You can hate abortion all you want and think women should undergo state sanctioned rapes as punishment for having sex for pleasure only, that's your right. But when you start FORCING that opinion onto others by FORCING them to undergo these rapes or taking away their right to have an abortion altogether is where your opinion is no longer an "opinion".
- 17 votes
Nick: Your having opinions is fine. Have all the opinions you want. However, your right to an opinion ENDS where MY right of privacy begins, especially if you try to force those opinions on me via legislation. Unless you want the state to start mandating invasive, expensive, painful, and unnecessary procedures on men every time they go to the doctor?
- 20 votes
Having no choice is forced.
Help! I being raped by the IRS!
- 2 votes
Is the IRS inserting something inside of you without your permission or against your will? If so then I think you have a case, if you are referring to paying taxes then it is an asinine & pretty disturbing comparison especially to anyone that has endured rape.
- 9 votes
So every time a parent makes their kids eat veggies or washes their mouth out with soap its rape?
Checkmate, I have trepidation every time I use my credit card/debit card to buy my groceries! I have distinct fears every time I use a pat of butter when I cook. If none of you know what I'm talking about, you, too, need to read A Handmaid's Tale by Margaret Atwood.
- 3 votes
RaisedByWolves: The Handmaid's Tale is an awesome book, and very appropriate to this topic. I'm glad you reminded me of it, as I haven't read it for a while.... Guess I need to dig out my copy. : )
- 5 votes
And it appears they are not only punishing those women that had the audacity to consent to sex, but also those that were victims of the crime of rape, which they are doing their damnedest to make NOT a crime at all, but a punishment for women that dare to go outside their homes without a proper escort. An escort than can protect them from the big bad world...
- 25 votes
#2 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:06 AM ESTIs is simple and basic in my mind, if you stick anything in a women's vaginia that she doesn't want it's called forcible rape, and these loons must be voted out, now. Vote!
- 28 votes
#3 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:25 AM ESTI'd like to see them removed from office and jailed as co-conspirators. That would make it less likely that any one ever try to pass these laws in the future.
I know it will never happen.
- 13 votes
My sentiments exactly fireryone. And I can think of a number of current laws to try them under. Hate crimes, sexual discrimination, civil rights violation, breaking their oath of office and others.
- 11 votes
As I have written time and time again; under new rape definitions, an unwanted insertion is rape.
- 18 votes
#4 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:42 AM EST"There's been a scheduling problem with your ultrasound, Dearie. Come back in ten months."
The right-wing is gaming our system. They are inherently dishonest.
- 25 votes
#5 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:49 AM ESTPart of the gaming, is that the supposed justification for the ultrasound is to confirm the fetus's age. From what I know of the science, however, if the fetus cannot be found on the abdominal ultrasound, it is small enough and the pregnancy is early enough, to make an abortion legal. So the transvaginal ultrasound only confirms what is already known, and does not serve the stated "purpose." It only serves the purposes otherwise hidden, like increasing the cost, the difficulty, and the shame in the hopes that some poor women will not go through with the abortion.
- 23 votes
Should any healthy adult be forced to submit to any medical procedure to obtain another procedure?
- 15 votes
#6 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:42 AM EST
Comment collapsed by the communityTell me... if you already know that you know that you are pregnant, exactly what is it you are testing for? Especially if it is in the first 6-12 weeks??
- 25 votes
Yes we do it all the time. It's called dianostic testing. Would you amputate a foot without confirming it needed to be amputated.
Yeah, and there's also some non-invasive ways, like peeing in a cup and taking some blood. There is absolutely no need for an ultrasound.
- 21 votes
Exactly, Brite. Diagnostic testing, my ass. A pregnancy diagnosis does NOT require vaginal probing.
- 19 votes
Should any healthy adult be forced to submit to any medical procedure to obtain another procedure?
Yes. Any man that has a vasectomy should also undergo a rectal ultrasound. That seems fair doesn't it?
- 15 votes
Yes we do it all the time. It's called dianostic testing. Would you amputate a foot without confirming it needed to be amputated.
Wrong. You are not forced to have the additional tests. It is your decision. And the decision is made in consultation with your doctor and not some jerk-off in the State legislature. Name one diagnostic test the State government requires you to have against your doctors advice before any medical procedure?
Name one.
You are trying to hard, grasping at straws and illusions to try to find some way to justify this unjustifiable law. And it shows.
- 22 votes
Actually, in medical malpractice cases, one of the theories that is often advanced is assualt and battery, because if the doctor does not get the appropriate informed consent from the patient for a given procedure, it is an unauthorized touching and is legally and actually a battery on the patient. You will often see in the written pleading, i.e. the summons and complaint, a count against the defendant doctor for battery, in addition to the negligence count, or malpractice, for breach of the standard of care.
I don't think this law can stand scrutiny in the courts, since it is a law that violates several Constitutional rights of both the patient and doctor, and when the government infringes on a Constitutional right, their is a standard of heightened scrutiny, and if the infringement is not justified by a compelling governmental interest, it will not stand.
I can only hope that the courts will see no such compelling interest in this phony legislation, and if they do find such an interest it will be complete fiction and a fraud on the citizenry.
- 10 votes
For all the procedures I have done, I have had to give my promisition before they will do it. I had to put my signature on a form to get it done! How can this law be legal? I see the courts getting involved an the law being thrown out!
- 10 votes
The morning after pill was designed as a crutch for women to engage in sexual activites without worry of the consequences of pregnancy. ..Like Santorum said..one aspirin held firmly between the knees is the perfect form of birth control.
- 2 votes
#7 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:59 AM ESTBecause we all know that condoms never break, the pill always works and people can have healthy relationships with thier spouses without sex.
Oh need to add a /sarcasm.
- 30 votes
I find it kind of sad that Santorum supporter obviously doesn't know any of the great knees together positions that are quite pleasurable. It will take a lot more than a little aspirin between the knees to stop my husband and I lol
- 20 votes
So now , sex is a sin and a concern of the state....what part of mind your own fvcking business don't you understand? You have no say in what a women does with her body you have no right to assert your will on anyone. If this was to be tolerated(which you will see in the 2012 election...it wont be) this precedent could be used for the state to fvck with your body.
- 18 votes
Luckily the people who think on this scale are in such a teeny tiny minority that I will gladly cheer if they are stupid enough to nominate Santorum (google him), maybe add Christie to the ticket for VP. Landslide for Obama/Biden and the true colors (black like their hearts) will finally show everyone that the GOP is dead dead dead and will never win another election.
- 3 votes
A law should be mandated stating all politicians who vote for this "procedure" must have their backsides probed to prove they have a brain..
- 13 votes
#8 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:54 AM ESTNice dramatic effect for the title..an ultrasound being held equivalent to rape. Oh Em Gee..
#9 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:00 AM ESTSorry, but forced vaginal penetration is rape. This is STATE FORCED penetration.
- 28 votes
...an ultrasound being held equivalent to rape. Oh Em Gee.
Then you won't mind when a nurse uses a rectal thermometer the size of a phallus, to take your temperature, right?
- 16 votes
Someone should make triplesek an appointment with the 10" wand, wrapped in a condom, that needs to be pushed in as far as it can go, then twisted and pushed until the proper position is attained.
It is an uncomfortable, humiliating procedure.....Which is the point of the Talibangelicals.
If you are male, I am certain they can use it on your anal opening!
Get back to us about how it feels.
- 20 votes
Rape is usually done not for sexual gratification, but to prove power over another individual. Break their mind per say. Is that not what this action of forcing someone to submit to a out of date and useless procedure doing? The woman already knows she is pregnant from the many other none invasive tests that can confirm that.
I remember a while back reading about a man that was charged with molestation of a minor and rape for shoving a garden hose into a child's rectum. To me, this is no different then that man's crime. In fact it is worse because our own law makers are saying actions like that are not rape.
- 15 votes
Time for women to hit the voting booth this November. This is war.
- 17 votes
There's nothing quite like the party of 'smaller government' is there? They get more radical, more pathetic, and more Talibanesque with each passing day.
- 14 votes
#10 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:03 AM ESTI thought Republicans were against mandates where healthcare is concerned. You're all against ObamaCare because it says you must pay for insurance.
Who pays for these forced ultrasounds that are being mandated all over the place?
The woman does that's who!
- 17 votes
#12 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:14 AM ESTIm Pro- Choice as I am A man. My GF is not. But neither of us tell others what to do. I would personally never want my GF to have an Abortion...Having my Son changed me on that part, but what others do is their own choice.
- 8 votes
#13 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:14 AM ESTIt appears that the National Abortion Foundation has been promoting trans-vaginal ultrasound "rape" for some time now to determine if a woman is pregnant and in need of an abortion. So in many cases it would appear that a woman in early stages of pregnancy may have already had this so called "rape" performed on her.
This fact is acknowledged in this “continuing medical education” module produced by the National Abortion Foundation (tag line: “A Provider’s Guide to Medical Abortion”):
“Transabdominal ultrasound cannot reliably diagnose pregnancies that are < 6 weeks’ gestation. Transvaginal ultrasound, by contrast, can detect pregnancies earlier, at approximately 4 ½ to 5 weeks’ gestation. Prompt diagnosis made possible by TVU can, therefore, result in earlier treatment.”
- 1 vote
#14 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:54 AM ESTThe clinics I volunteered at would only did the transvaginals for medical (not surgical) abortions because they had to ensure the gestation of the embryo due to the medicine only being effective up to 9 weeks, they warn you of the reduced effectiveness past 7 weeks so they need to know for certain how far along you are.
However, with the surgical abortions it really didn't matter because a couple weeks (10 weeks to 12 weeks for example) difference doesn't affect the effectiveness, unlike with the medical ones. If anything size seemed to be what they focused on with the surgical ones. There are non invasive procedures that can confirm pregnancy and give you a good idea of the gestational age and size of the fetus, transvaginal is just not necessary
- 17 votes
Please, Lana, let's not introduce actual medical facts into this debate. It might ruin the religious euphoria of the Republicans who passed this legal rape law.
- 11 votes
Having an abortion can be the equivalent of killing the victim of the crime instead of the criminal..that is just unbelievable...
Then don't have one. If a woman decides to have one it is none of your Business.
- 19 votes
Exactly, butt out, TS. None of your gd business. We don't all share your theology (and I'm not talking about climate change).
- 14 votes
So you agree it's ok to punish the victim of a crime instead of the criminal who did it?? That scares the hell out of me!!! Instead of punishing the rapist..punish the girl who got raped....Just like killing the baby cuz mommy couldn't keep her legs closed...Ya'll are soooo weird!!
It is not a BABY. No matter how you Teapublicans try and spin it.
- 16 votes
I'm not trying to spin anything at all..I see it for what it is..abortion is the end of a life process regardless of which ever level you choose to end it..It is a baby and in the back of your mind you know it! You don't have to admit it..but you completely understand that the end result is death of a human. And for your info.i'm not a fan of either party so get off the political trip... I'm talking about reality! Either at 10 cells or a fully developed body..you were a baby, a human baby. To say otherwise is illogical and denying yourself of your own existence..which is stupid.
It is NOT a baby.
In your mind, what makes a fertilized egg, an embryo even a fetus a baby?
- 13 votes
It has nothing to do with what is in somones mind or perception..It's when the embryo is connected to the mother's that embryo (You) are now a developing human baby.. There is no way around it. Even if you choose it to be otherwise. According to your logic.. just closing your eyes will turn off the sun...
That is the operative word... DEVELOPING - not a baby yet. Thank you fro proving my point.
- 14 votes
Or is a 5 yr old the same as an adult? Because they are developing after all.
- 12 votes
When the egg is fertilized it's a human..It's in every biology book in the world.. My point has been made and being that you are trying to play word games now shows that your arguement is weak..I will not resort to your childish word games.. We all see now that abortion is death....Moving on now..
Take up your argument with the Supreme Court. Tell they are wrong you are right. Lol
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability
United States
The United States Supreme Court stated in Roe v. Wade (1973) that viability (i.e., the "interim point at which the fetus becomes ... potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid"[3]) "is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks."[3] The 28-week definition became part of the "trimester framework" marking the point at which the "compelling state interest" (under the doctrine of strict scrutiny) in preserving potential life became possibly controlling, permitting states to freely regulate and even ban abortion after the 28th week.[3] The subsequent Planned Parenthood v. Casey (1992) modified the "trimester framework," permitting the states to regulate abortion in ways not posing an "undue burden" on the right of the mother to an abortion at any point before and after viability; on account of technological developments between 1973 and 1992, viability itself was legally dissociated from the hard line of 28 weeks, leaving the point at which "undue burdens" were permissible variable depending on the technology of the time and the judgment of the state legislatures.
- 12 votes
Caught so won't discuss it anymore - that is what is childish. IS a 5 yr old an adult? A fertilized egg may be a developing human BUT it is not a baby. AND no biology book will say it is.
- 13 votes
Thats just a legal definition..not an ethical one..big difference.
So now the victim of a rape has two choices. Carry the child to term and live for 9 months with the knowledge that the proof of the violation of their body is growing in their uterus or to receive a second rape courteously provided by the state.
The "child" has no say in this because they have no concious thoughts on the matter. They were not the victim of the crime, just the product of it. YOU have no say in the matter because you are not the victim of the crime and it sure as hell isn't your body.
- 11 votes
I thought you were "Moving On." Just who in the hell do you think you are to decide what is "ethical" for a woman? Teapublican's really need to learn to mind their own business.
- 17 votes
As i said before..You can have your choice to abort..That's on you..but don't try to talk away the fact that an abortion is the death of a human being on some level...
- 1 vote
We all see now that abortion is death....Moving on now..
Masturbation is death too. None of think a sperm, embryo, or fetus isn't alive or human, they just aren't actual PEOPLE.
Regardless, no person has the right to use another persons body against their will, even if their life depends on it so I have no idea why you would want to give a parasitic unconscious unviable embryo that special right.
but don't try to talk away the fact that an abortion is the death of a human being on some level...
I agree it is the death of a human being on the same level as the death of a sperm is the death of a human being. They are both just potential people. No actual person is killed, so same level.
- 15 votes
Prove it. Prove to me a Fetus 12 weeks our younger can survive outside the mother. Since we both know you can't it is not a HUMAN.
- 11 votes
That's a real weak argument Lana..soo weak..a sperm and egg separately are not human..combine the two and Bam..you got a human baby!...Like I said, many don't want to believe it and try to talk around it..but it's still the truth. You can have your choice..but the choice is death...pure and simple..
newsvine.com /_news/2012/02/19/10451376-pro-choice-is-not-synonymous-with-pro-stupid
I'm not trying to spin anything at all..I see it for what it is..
actually you fail miserably to see it for what it is... what part of NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS what a woman other than your wife does .. do you not understand...
- 13 votes
actually, I completely understand, yet you fail miserably to see that at the end of the day...abortion is death....cold,hard, death....
Oh, and some people on this site actually believe the husband is included in having no say so if to kill the baby or not..But that's a whole other topic..
the father of the child has choice in the matter..and abortion is death....
Wrong on both counts. Until a man can die in child birth they have no say in the matter. Just out of curiosity why are you still commenting? You said you were "Moving On."
- 11 votes
That's a real weak argument Lana..soo weak..a sperm and egg separately are not human
Oh so they are mouse or dog sperm and eggs then? They are human
combine the two and Bam..you got a human baby!
Wrong. Combine the two PLUS at least 6 months gestation and Bam...you got a human baby! Combine the two you get an embryo, aka potential human baby. You're missing the most important part of the equation (6 months gestation) in making an actual human baby.
Like I said, many don't want to believe it and try to talk around it..but it's still the truth.
Not sure who you are trying to kid into thinking an embryo is the equivalent of a newborn. Question: You're in a fertility clinic and it's burning down. You see a freezer with 10,000 live human embryos (babies in your mind) but a 3 year old who obviously got separated from his mother in the chaos is hiding behind it. You can only carry one. Are you seriously going to tell me you would choose those 10,000 "babies" over the one single 3 year old?
Oh, and some people on this site actually believe the husband is included in having no say so if to kill the baby or not.
Yeah until he is the one facing all the risks, complications and side effects of pregnancy and childbirth he should have no say. But once again, none of us support either parent being able to kill babies.
- 10 votes
Plagiarism is against the Code Of Honor. Which you have clearly done with the comment above.
http://www.newsvine.com/_nv/cms/info/codeOfHonor
As the host of your column, you are expected to foster healthy, open discussions by setting a good example. Be responsible for the content you submit and exercise impartiality when deleting comments and reporting abuse. More +
- Plagiarism and copyright infringement will not be tolerated. If you did not write something, do not portray it as your own (use the "blockquote" tag and cite your source by linking to the original content). If you do not have the right to republish the content in question, do not post it to Newsvine.
You copy your comment word for word which is plagiarism.
http://www.frc.org/brochure/the-best-pro-life-arguments-for-secular-audiences
- 7 votes
It is also at odds with the views of America's first feminists, all of whom opposed abortion. Chief among them were Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who not only led the fight for the right of women to own property, to vote, and obtain equal education, but also spoke out against abortion.
Susan B. Anthony's newspaper, The Revolution, called abortion "child murder" and "infanticide."[56] In 1869 Anthony said: "No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!"
*Yawns* not claiming info..just sharing truths..which most of you are against.. I give up..you people are in a sad state of mind...Abortion is murder..murder is death..abortion is death..choose abortion..choose murder...
Your comment has been reported. You did not quote the web site, you provided it as your own writing which it is not. No QUOTATIONS marks means you plagiarized someone work.
- 6 votes
No answers so deflect & retreat. LOL. BTW - abortion is NOT murder. It is illegal & murder is the illegal taking of a life... that's right you don't talk law - you talk "ethics" as long as they are YOURS.
- 8 votes
Oh, and some people on this site actually believe the husband is included in having no say so if to kill the baby or not.
That all depends on the relationship. I know if my wife was pregnant and wanted an abortion that she would tell me so I could provide input on it. End the end though, it is still her body and her choice.
The same goes for any medical decisions that I make. If I decide to get a vasectomy done, I will inform my wife, she will give her opinion on it, but the choice ultimately falls to me, because it is my body.
- 8 votes
It is just easier to repeat the mantra ad nauseum and deflect than provide truthful, accurate and cited proof. You are right on the questioning of the ethics.
- 4 votes
The illogic of the pro-life fantasy and superstition cannot be countered with scientific fact. They will spin and lie and self-delude to get the answer they want. What is said about the zygote can be said about the ovum or sperm. They are living cells, they carry DNA, and they are unique in all the world. All the other attributes cited by Triple Sek are equally true of many forms of cellular existence.
The answer to the question "When does life begin?" is not a scientific one, since the components that come together to start a developing fetus are living before fertilization. The question is one of philosophy and religion, so any anwswer given is philosophical and religioius. Therefore, as the Supreme Court so judiciously decided, a non-viable fetus is not a human being, it is a collection of cells, and may as well be a mole that you have removed in the doctors office, or a spleen or appendix that you may discard. Any other opinion is an imposition of religious beliefs. That's exactly why the law is what it is under Roe v. Wade and it's progeny.
If anyone tells you any different, it is either a lie or a ritualistic superstition made up by primitive people that are without the sophistication to understand and live with scientific understanding. That's fine for them, but if they try to impose their superstitions on you, you are not bound to accept them.
- 9 votes
Here's you solution, TS: if the man cannot keep his dick in his pants, cut it off! Or castrate him. The male is the aggressor in this scheme, and if you're so intent upon punishing the criminal, let's have a neutering of males be the punishment for un-wanted pregnancies.
- 10 votes
The whole situation is a tough call. We wish we had all the answers. I just hope that these solutions aren't abused. Every situation actually is different but I wouldn't want to use abortion as a catch-all just to avoid responsibilities. In that situation no one wins. Maybe some day we will have this all solved and stuff. Didn't mean to step on anyone at all, I enjoyed the discussion. We all have good intentions.
Post #15.34 pretty much said everything I wanted to say. And this needs repeating:
What is said about the zygote can be said about the ovum or sperm. They are living cells, they carry DNA, and they are unique in all the world. All the other attributes cited by Triple Sek are equally true of many forms of cellular existence.
The whole situation is a tough call
No, it's really not. Don't believe in abortion, don't have one. Plain and simple. Don't make the situation any tougher than it has to be
- 8 votes
the father of the child has choice in the matter..
No we don't. At least not until the fetus, zygote or whatever stage the growth is at the time can be transplanted to the father and he can carry it to term. Then and only then does the father have a choice. We do not have the choice of controlling someone else's body.
- 9 votes
Summer,
This is just this male's perspective. And it applies to a married couple or other long term relationship. If asked, I will give my opinion, but it is not my decision. And if not asked, I would be looking at other signs of problems in the relationship. It would be a sign of a lack of trust and that is a sign that I had better do some soul searching on our relationship to see why that trust is not there.
- 9 votes
No we don't. At least not until the fetus, zygote or whatever stage the growth is at the time can be transplanted to the father and he can carry it to term. Then and only then does the father have a choice. We do not have the choice of controlling someone else's body.
Tim S. - As a married father of two, I agree. Well said!
- 8 votes
Triple Sek deleted for plagiarism. If you wish to repost using block quote and citing source please feel free
- 3 votes
bloozbro,
Tim S. - As a married father of two, I agree. Well said!
Glad to see there are other men here, instead of the scared little boys that think they have to control others bodies to feel they have worth.
- 5 votes
Regarding the rape and incest question, I wonder why these women do not request, and or take the morning after pill, to prevent the possible pregnancy.
I am not judging, just wondering why.
- 1 vote
#16 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:38 AM ESTAs far as incest goes - who is the victim going to ask? Usually they are underage & cannot get the morning after pill themselves. Some rape victims are too ashamed & shut themselves away for days & weeks...
- 8 votes
yeagerdog: There are a lot of reasons. One of the reasons I can think of off the top of my head is the lack of reporting of a rape. Many women don't immediately seek help - medical, psychological, legal, etc. - after a rape. Many women are ashamed, frightened, etc. after a rape and they don't go in right away. Morning After Pill works best if taken with in 24 hours (up to 72 hours) after sex - so, if the woman isn't able/willing to begin dealing with the rape in some way within a very short time after the rape occurs, it may be too late to take the morning after pill.
- 6 votes
nica;
Thanks for that input, but I still think that if the women that know they do not want a pregnancy, come to grip with the problem sooner, rather than later, we can make this less of an issue between the sides.
- 1 vote
#17 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:51 AM ESTYD, if you notice the one side is trying to make it difficult fro women to even get BC, let alone the morning after pill. Thus "personhood" initiatives.
And it still remains a fact that it is no one's business why the woman became pregnant in the first place.
- 11 votes
nica;
Agreed; that does seem to be a problem from those that have no ability to understand that other people may just have another point of view.
- 3 votes
#18 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:02 PM ESTThere's a blood test which measures, to the DAY, the age of a fetus. I've had them. I've had them because the home pregnancy tests turned pink before the 28th day of a cycle when I was pregnant and doctors refused to accept the results. So, there was the more expensive test to confirm pregnancy and developmental age. Doctors need to start believing their patients.
I've had ultrasounds - the freezing goo on the belly and rub the thing on the abdomen type. In every case, the fetus was visible before or at the 3-month mark. Reason for those ultrasounds? I was measuring larger than due date in every case and they were looking for twins.
There is absolutely no reason for a vaginal-probe ultrasound to determine pregnancy. The blood test is sufficient. The regular ultrasound gives enough detail.
The men making these laws clearly demonstrate their disdain, contempt, and extreme dislike for women in general. They need to be voted out of office and we all need to begin to examine candidates more carefully on their beliefs, behavior, and mindsets - before we elect them.
After these last months of these disgusting displays of control assertion and power grabbing, it would behoove us all to distrust the right wing until it proves that it is focused on moving this country forward and respecting ALL citizens, ALL rights, and display a better understanding of the Constitution.
These various laws are designed to punish, humiliate, and intimidate women. That's it. Subjecting a pregnant woman to emotional trauma subjects the fetus to negatives, too. So if the idea is to intimidate or shame a woman into maintaining a pregnancy, other damages can be incurred for the baby.
The real issue here is, are women going to let the state probe their bodies under duress and subject themselves to this gross injustice and literal invasion of uttermost privacy?
- 5 votes
#19 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 1:12 PM ESTBut, but, but we are constantly told that the tea party stands for less intrusive gubment and they don't believe in healthcare mandates!
Can any of you tea party people please explain why these "government mandated ultrasounds" are somehow different than a "government mandate to buy insurance"?
Does no one else see the rank hypocrisy here?
- 6 votes
#20 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:07 PM ESTRepublicans/Teabaggers/Libertarians making up laws that invade women's bodies and individual freedoms while spouting out rhetoric on individual freedoms and personal resistance to government- That is the very definition of hypocrisy.
But, but, but we are constantly told that the tea party stands for less intrusive gubment and they don't believe in healthcare mandates!
Can any of you tea party people please explain why these "government mandated ultrasounds" are somehow different than a "government mandate to buy insurance"?
Does no one else see the rank hypocrisy here?
- 7 votes
I would like to know, if anyone has read the statute, what are the penalties imposed on a doctor who decides not to follow this law because of the harm it does to his patient or because it usurps and supplants the doctors judgment in the care of his patient. Is there a criminal penalty? Is it jailable? It's hard to believe that a doctor would perform an unnecessary and potentially risky procedure just because some religious zealots pass a law saying so.
As I posted above, this law probably won't hold up in the courts, but there are idiot judges just as there are idiotic legislators, so it's possible it may survive a trial court review. Also, because of the transitory nature of pregnancy, the rules of standing don't strictly adhere as they do in other cases, because if they did, a pregnancy could be over by the time a court hears and decides issues related to pregnancy, so it should get a quick review in the courts. These cases don't get dismissed for mootness.
I imagine there will be challenges from pregnant women as well as doctors, but I wonder whether there are criminal penalties and what they are.
- 5 votes
#21 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:08 PM ESTI would like to know, if anyone has read the statute, what are the penalties imposed on a doctor who decides not to follow this law because of the harm it does to his patient or because it usurps and supplants the doctors judgment in the care of his patient. Is there a criminal penalty? Is it jailable?
In Texas the law says the woman can refuse to view or listen to the ultrasound but the doctor MUST tell her what would've been on the ultrasound - even if she doesn't want to hear it.
So if in fact a doctor does NOT read the script - the doctor can be brought up on criminal charges.
- 6 votes
Yes, TheyreAllCrooks, my friend, we see it in spades. Is their a stronger term than rank hypocrisy, though? This is worse than that, if that's possible. The right these days like to call Obama a socialist, yet this law is actually communistic. They accuse the Pres of violating religious freedom, yet they are literally mandating religion and religious doctrine on doctors and their patients. They complain of violating Constitutional rights, yet they command that a doctor engage in prescribed speech, which to me seems worse than censorship, or prohibiting proscribed speech. This is hypocrisy on a steroid. The mandate to buy health insurance seems awfully mild when compared to a mandate that a foreign object be rammed into ones body. This is more like a law that you have to get your social security number tattooed on your gums, like a racehorse. I can't think of another term that outranks rank hypocrisy, but we should think of one!
- 7 votes
#22 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 2:16 PM ESTThe mandate to buy health insurance seems awfully mild when compared to a mandate that a foreign object be rammed into ones body. This is more like a law that you have to get your social security number tattooed on your gums, like a racehorse. I can't think of another term that outranks rank hypocrisy, but we should think of one!
I just find it amazing the number of "conservatives" who came on here and tore President Obama a new one over "mandated insurance" but the room is completely silent on their part regarding "mandated ultrasounds"...
I don't see how any woman in her right mind could vote for Santorum after his pitiful diplay over the last couple weeks.
- 5 votes
On the various threads regarding this topic, I've noticed that the only ones in support of this heinous act are male.
Hmmm........
- 7 votes
#23 - Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:40 PM ESTThere is a book for most of you on here titled"The Abnormal Personality Through Literture"I suggest you accompy it with a DSM.
Then go over every post for symtomology. Rather than judging one another.
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